What Hip-Hop Can Teach Us About Kubernetes

Bart Farrell: In this episode of KubeFM, we have a conversation that goes well beyond Kubernetes. Joined by Kelsey Hightower, alongside Eric Maserati E. Abercrombie, and Julius Payne II, for a discussion about learning, identity, craft, and what it means to build something that actually lasts. Kelsey reflects on life after Google and what it means to step away from titles and status, how real learning often starts after you've made it, and why fundamentals still matter more than tools. Eric brings the perspective of a creator and sound designer, someone who understands iteration, taste, and training your ear and connects those ideas to how engineers learn, create, and judge quality. Julius shares what it looks like to enter the cloud-native world for the first time, navigating Kubernetes community and self-belief as a QA engineer, finding his footing in a space that can feel overwhelming. Or as he uses the bullying analogy, you got to do it one frame at a time. The conversation touches on imposter syndrome, independence, creativity, hip-hop as a model for ownership, and why struggle is often the part that actually teaches you something. This isn't a conversation about hype or shortcuts. It's about earning your voice, training your model, and building judgment over time in tech, and in life. This episode is sponsored by LearnKube. Since 2017, LearnKube has helped Kubernetes engineers from all over the world level up through training courses. are instructor-led and are given in person and online. They're 60% practical and 40% theoretical. Courses are given to individuals as well as to groups, and students have access to the course materials for the rest of their lives. For more information, go to learnkube.com. Now, let's get into the episode. Welcome to KubeFM. Super excited for this. We have some very special guests with us today. I'd like to start out with you, Eric Maserati E. Abercrombie. Can you introduce yourself? Let people know who you are, what you do?

Eric Abercrombie: My name is Eric Abercrombie, also known as Maserati E. Man of many hats, Maserati E is my stage name. I'm a musician and producer. And I'm going to start here. Fun fact, but not so fun at all in actuality. I'm a returned citizen. I'm formerly incarcerated. Unfortunately, at the age of 17, during the commission of a robbery, I shot a man. And fortunately for the both of us, that man lived. And ultimately, I was sentenced to 10 years with two strikes in state prison. And during my journey of incarceration, it was a lot of life lessons that came my way that shaped who I am today. And I now utilize those experiences of my journey of growth and transformation to make an impact in the community today and utilize the skill sets that I obtained from audio engineering to sound design to film, a lot of different ways to make impacts utilizing my creativity. So definitely trying to make a difference, trying to change the world by changing the way we view the world.

Bart Farrell: You're definitely doing that as a song that you wrote titled Break the Mold. It's something that you do continuously. very happy to have you with us today. Your talents are many, and we'll be experiencing quite a few of them today in different aspects. I had the privilege of meeting Maserati in 2019, and since then we've collaborated on different initiatives, one of them being in 2021, where he performed music for us in our first co-located event that we did for the Data on Kubernetes community. And since then, also in the KubeFM context, he sound designed our docu-series that we did about Flux that was sponsored by our friends at Control Plane, So you can hear his sound design there, all the work that he put into those episodes to really bring them to life and give them an extra edge and flavor. We have somebody else who's joining us today, and his name is Kelsey Hightower. Kelsey, for people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do?

Kelsey Hightower: I'm a recovering software engineer. I was in the tech game for about 25 years. I retired a couple years ago from Google as a distinguished engineer, so I kind of made it to the final chapter, got into the Hall of Fame, retired. And now just trying to figure out what life is post-tech. So a lot of investment, a lot of public speaking, still writing from time to time.

Bart Farrell: we had a chance to talk about hip hop in Atlanta. And so this is something we're definitely going to keep present in the conversation today, as Maserati is also a hip hop artist. So Kelsey, can you just walk us through a bit about your hip hop experience? When did you first start listening to hip hop? What was the first, you know, I don't know if you were into tapes or CDs. I was definitely into tapes. in terms of the first, hip hop music that you acquired, take us through your early days?

Kelsey Hightower: my early days, born in 1981, moved to Long Beach, California, probably around the age of two or three. And so being on the West coast, we had tape decks at that point, So you sneaking into Too Short tapes, you listen to the NWA tape when your mom ran into the grocery store, you like, yo, that's enough time for about three songs. And then you eventually get caught, Your mom comes back and is like, what's that? And it's like one of those interludes that you can't even describe on film. And so I think early hip hop was very much influenced by the neighborhood you were in. So if you're in Long Beach, you listen to you know, gangster rap because that was kind of making this thing. Oakland was, you know, Too Short, E-40. So for me, a lot of hip hop in that regard. And then I think the first hip hop tape that I bought with like my money, like saved up and got money was maybe, I think it was probably like the Biggie album, Ready to Die. I think that's like the first one that I bought, Other ones you just get from other people. Can I borrow it, move, never give it back. But that's probably like the first one that I bought. Like, I got to have the whole album. All Maserati, what about you? Because you're from Oakland originally,

Eric Abercrombie: Born and raised in Oakland. I'm from the town, man. And for me, I definitely would have to agree. I think the influences of the area I grew up definitely played a role in my music. But it wasn't hip hop. The first one that I actually spent some money on was R&B, man. I was heavy off the R&B. And it was two CDs to be exact. Unfortunately, I was incarcerated at the time too. But it was Mary J. Blige, My Life, and Erykah Badu, Baduism. And it just took me back, man, to being a kid. My mom was heavy off those. For sure, I'm a 90s baby. So, you know, that had the 90s on lock for sure.

Bart Farrell: Kelsey and I are from the previous decades. So we enjoyed a different set of music and different set of technologies that were available to us at the time to consume that music. Now, Kelsey, you explained a bit about where you're at career-wise. And we see a lot of different things. If we look at hip-hop as an example of the frictions around being a self-produced independent artist, people that sign, how they define their careers, different sorts of businesses that they'll have simultaneously. We look at an up-and-coming artist. Up and coming or quite successful now coming from Vallejo, California, named Russell, and he produces most of his own shows. He has a podcast, he has, you know, clothing line, things of that nature. In terms of parallels that you might see of people that are, you know, starting their own businesses in tech. Are there things that you've seen because you talked to a lot of entrepreneurs? Are there lessons across the board that you think people might be getting that they might be getting wrong when it comes to building a product, building a brand and a business?

Kelsey Hightower: I think that the thing that I think a lot of people forget, there's 9 billion people in the world. You only need 2,000 of them to be feeling you, Not everyone has to be mainstream. Not everyone has to be Grammy award winning. And it comes like that in business. When you think about a local restaurant with one location, they got one menu and they service their community and most of them will do fine. So I think a lot of times when it comes to entrepreneurship, people are always thinking that if I can't be as big as Google, big as Amazon, it's not worth doing. And I think that's just the wrong outlook to look at it. And so when we talk about independent artists, that independence is not just about being small, it's about being independent. Like you can try new things, you can try things that aren't mainstream, you can try things that are not approved. And I think a lot of people forget that there's only so many patterns of thought in people. And so what you like, I guarantee you, there's five to 6,000 other people in the world that like what you like. So that kind of gives you permission to just stay your own lane. you know, do something that, you know, may not necessarily get you on the billboard charts. So that's the thing that I think I like so much about the concept of creativity. So when it comes to hip hop, it was probably the first time I've seen someone be creative, Because think about it, you listen to this music, the way people tell these stories. I remember listening to Spice One, he had this song called 187 Pure. And the lyrics were just like this undertone where he's definitely talking about drugs and alcohol, but he's mentioning all the names as like people in this story and this narrative that he's telling. And so as someone who is in like, you know, elementary school, you learn your alphabet, you learn how to read and write. But this level of mastery of the English language is creative, it's technical, all the things that go into producing this music. And then you got to have something that captures people who may not be able to dive into the lyrics just yet. And you're doing all of this as someone that's independent, Like the stories of Too Short and all these people selling CDs out the trunk, like, hey, I'm going to get the equipment. I'm going to invest in myself. I'm going to spend $3 to make a $10 tape, keep the $7 profit, do shows in my local market until I blow up. To me, that was always inspiring. Like, yo, any idea you got, you just got to put it out there and let the people decide if they want more of it.

Bart Farrell: Love that. And Maserati, in your case, you play guitar, you sing, you rap. Could you tell us about the development of your skills in that area? And also what Kelsey was saying too. In terms of, you know, there are 9 billion people in the world, you have to define your audience, the people that you want to connect with. How did you build that out? You know, tell us about, you know, the trial and error process of the first songs that you created, you know, the community that you were sharing them with, and how you decided to build your voice as well as the lyrics that you deliver.

Eric Abercrombie: It's been a journey, man. I feel like it evolved as my life evolved, if we will. I like to look at myself as a composer of life, So all I'm doing is just taking my life experiences and mixing it with a melody. So as I began to grow, so did my music, so did the context, so did the lyrics, so did the delivery. Like the overall aspect of my style completely began to evolve. And then we throw in the guitar, I learned how to play guitar while I was incarcerated, self-taught. Got tired of beating like on my chest and beating on the tables and all that type of stuff. And I told myself if I could beat on the table or beat on my chest and rap, then I could play guitar and rap. And I put it in my mind like those same beat sequences of like one, two, three, because that's like the most typical beat you hear in prison, This little three beats sequence there. So I figured if I could take those three beats and just transition that to notes and do two of the same and then just switch on the third, that might sound pretty creative. It might sound more like a song, if we will, Something not so monotonous. So I began starting with just that first string and then slowly transitioned the chords and eventually transitioned the beating on the guitar while I was playing. And that's how I developed my pretty unique style of play today, where I add the percussion rhythm simultaneously with like bass line and other rhythms on the guitar while rapping and singing. Ultimately, I feel like again, just that journey of growth is what made my lyrics begin to change and my mind began to shift and my intentions began to shift. Initially, rapping for me was definitely expression, but it also was like to be cool because I know I could. The ladies is feeling it. My boys is feeling it. It's like, oh I want to be a rapper. I had that influence early on. My mother was an artist. My father was a producer and things like that. So music always been in me. So that influence was there. But initially I wasn't so intentional. And as I began to grow, it was like, this is powerful. Like I started realizing how it's impacting people. I started realizing how that influence was coming and ultimately just reflecting on how I was influenced by music to the point where it kind of, I don't want to say it played a role in my criminality, but it definitely kept me comfortable in my lifestyle of criminality, if we will. So even reflecting on that, how music has impacted me in positive and negative ways, I just began to take it more serious and got way more intentional to where today you hear like a break the mold. But still being a very layered person, you know, I make a variety of things from rap to rock to country to pop in a variety of different rap styles from like that. trap to the Bay Area flavor, you know, it's in me. It ain't no me for real. So definitely got to stay true to my roots, you know, but and then you got the conscious stuff. So I try to capture everything that's genuinely me and I'm not one dimensional. So I try to capture all of my layers for sure. So you might again hear me one time popping it, talking about the ladies and you might hear me talking about breaking the mold on the other one. But it's all genuine. It's all real for sure.

Bart Farrell: And Kelsey, in your case, you give a lot of talks. You've written books, you speak all over the world at conferences, you talk to lots of different companies. Can you talk about the development in your case about finding your voice, building that out? If imposter syndrome was something that you struggled with, where you see yourself at today in terms of the message that you share, the message that you built through all the learnings you've acquired along the way?

Kelsey Hightower: You know what's crazy about that? Imposter syndrome, you hear it a lot, this term, I think people learn for the first time and just use it, overly use it. You know what I mean? Like when people jump on, like, this is going to be amazing. Probably not. You know what I mean? It's like when I think about imposter syndrome, some people are faking it. So you are an imposter. That's what you're doing. And it's OK in some cases, like if you're working towards something and you're being honest with yourselves, there's nothing wrong with feeling like, hey, I'm not as good as I want to be yet. This is why I'm working towards it. It's when you start pretending is when you start to earn that imposter syndrome label. So when I think about finding your own voice, it's the hardest thing in the world to do because when you think about it, you go to a lot of people, they follow the quote unquote traditional path. You go to school until you're 18, you go to college and you conform to whatever they tell you is required to get that degree. So if you want to be a computer scientist, you study this program, you take these classes. And then when you graduate, you don't quite know what it means to find your own voice because you've been following the guidelines and the curriculum to a tee. You've been graded on such. You've never been graded on who you are directly, so you don't even know what that is, and it feels weird. So when you get to the office, what do you do? You pattern match again. Hey, what does a good rating look like? How do I get that promotion? And then you jump back on those guide rails. And most people ride those guide rails to the end. The part where you go find your own voice is tricky because you don't even know what it sounds like. And then when you put it out there, the thing that most people are afraid of is being judged based on who they really are, If you go put on a costume for Halloween and people don't like that costume, no problem. You can go take it off and go back to who you were. But once you start using your authentic voice and you put it out there, I guarantee you when Eric puts out that music, he's putting himself on the line. So when you say, I don't like your music and it's really coming from him, he's not mimicking anybody else, you can't help but take it personal. And some people say, well, you shouldn't take it personal. Like, you got to take it personal. It's part of the feedback loop. But I would say everything ain't for everybody. So last thing I'll say here is once you find your voice, just realize that level of precision, everybody not going to like it. And you got to take that. That's the gift and the curse of doing this. So the people who like it, you rock with it. The people who don't is not for them. Just like you ain't going to buy every piece of clothing in the store. You don't like every dish at every restaurant. It's the same thing when you find your own authentic voice.

Bart Farrell: Very well said. Eric, any reactions to that?

Eric Abercrombie: First, I got to say, Kelsey, man, I love that approach. If you are acting and not being your genuine self, then you earn that imposter syndrome label. That just hit me in the greatest of ways there. Because that's something that I feel that I actually have suffered from. And prime example, becoming an Emmy-nominated artist. I didn't feel like I deserved it initially. And a bunch of people was giving me praise to the point where even like the producers had to call me like no he's like you need to pop your stuff on this one because it was nominated for two different emmys and one was best music direction and it was and mind you it's about the San Quentin Warriors I didn't play on the team I wasn't on the team or anything like that they just used me playing one of my songs break the mold and it got them that emmy so I didn't feel like I deserved that so they had to hit me and tell me like nah man we got it because of you like pop it and even becoming like a radio host on Sirius XM. Like I wasn't initially like part of that program and things like that. So I didn't feel like I deserved it. And a lot of different things. And in my mind, I battled with that. And one of the things ultimately that helped me overcome those things was just focusing on results, like not the hypotheticals, not the what ifs, but focusing on the results of all the things that I actually did do to get me there. And that's one of the things that helped me like snap out of it and pop my collar a little bit like man i'm tripping like of course i'm supposed to be here like i did xyz look at everything that i've done to get here this wasn't overnight this wasn't just handed to me like i've been working my ass off to get to where i am you know so like reflecting on those results ultimately is what helped me when it comes to imposter syndrome and sometimes i ain't gonna lie gotta keep it real this is a safe space gotta keep it real sometimes it still does creep in that doubt you know what i mean but that's how I can combat it. That's how I can combat it. For myself, that has been very efficient. For sure, it's been very efficient.

Kelsey Hightower: Eric, it sounds like sometimes we've got to learn how to win, It seems like we all are. We can all learn how to grind. It's real easy to get upset, disappointed. But when you win, you're like, can I celebrate?

Eric Abercrombie: Man, for real. Like that, is so well said. I think that's it to the T. You know what I mean? Like coming from the bottom, man, coming from oppressive environments, from poverty and all those things is difficult. you know to bask in the glory sometimes for real like it becomes difficult and a lot of times i find myself when i do find myself being happy you know it's always haters it's always gonna be haters and sometimes i'm gonna be real sometimes it gets to me and then it makes me want to just focus on the next thing instead of just you know receiving and embracing that win so

Bart Farrell: like i would agree with that a thousand percent and to take this a little bit further since julius has just been able to join us. Julius, I'd like you to introduce yourself. And then also, Julius, we met because you attended KubeCon for the first time. As someone attending KubeCon for the first time, I want to hear about what your process was getting into that. Because for a lot of people, it can be really intimidating. Julius, I think you came alone. You're in a big space with close to 10,000 people navigating all that. Talk about the challenges of going through that, how you motivate yourself to get to that point, and then share as well your experience being there.

Julius Payne II: Okay. How are you doing, Kelsey? Julius Payne, from North Carolina. How you doing, Eric? I'm sorry for the technical difficulties. It happens. I've been enjoying the conversation. I'm from North Carolina. I'm an Army veteran. I'm a QA engineer. I got introduced to KubeCon through Tamika Reed. She actually attended KubeCon. She mentioned it and she does a weekly video on Saturdays and talking about stocks, tech and jobs. And she mentioned KubeCon and I was like, man, I'm going to go out there and check it out since it was close to Atlanta, Georgia. I drove there, went there by myself. I was a little overwhelmed, but I am a social butterfly. So that kind of helped. So, you know, you talk about imposter syndrome. You know, I kind of thought like maybe I'm not good enough, but, to that point is like, hey, I'm not going to know everything, but the best way to know is to immerse myself. So that is what I did. I just went there and jumped in and just introduced myself and let people know like, hey, I don't know what this is, but I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to go and try and figure out what I want to do in this space. Kelsey, I did a lot of homework. I watched all your videos. You talked about, you know, not being afraid to be great. You know, you talked about you know, not giving yourself permission to do what it is that you want to do. I do have one question for you, but we can hold it off for later. But to answer your question. No,

Kelsey Hightower: no. Go for it now. I'm going to let you ask that question. I want to explain the don't be afraid to be great.

Eric Abercrombie: OK.

Kelsey Hightower: There are times where I'm like nervous to go on stage or nervous to learn a new skill because I'm not great at it yet or expectations are too high or I can't predict everything that's going to happen. But the great things happen when you at least get on the court. I mean, like nothing can happen if you don't do anything.

Julius Payne II: Exactly.

Kelsey Hightower: And to me, you might just surprise yourself. So look, you're going to get started. You know, sometimes I'll go up there and I only know what 15% of my talk is going to be. And the other 85% I know is going to come in real time. And so I get nervous because a lot of times when I go back and look at some of those videos or keynotes, I'm like, yo, there were some parts of them that were really, great. Because I left room for that greatness. Because sometimes people try to structure everything to be safe, I ain't going to say that. I don't want to try that. They may not get it. So then we kind of talk ourselves out of raising the bar even for ourselves. And we just stay comfortable with that mediocrity. So I always tell people, it's like, man, sometimes you can't be afraid to be great because you've got to leave a little room to get started. I just want to put that out there. It's not the, I want you to walk around overly confident, walk around like an asshole. No, I just want you to leave a little space. to try something slightly different. For some of y'all, that's going to mean buying a different color shirt than the black and gray you used to, And then trying something out different. Agreed.

Julius Payne II: I really appreciate your feedback on that. I understood the explanation you gave even in the interview, and it made sense to me. I think we share the same sentiment when it comes to just trying, If you don't get it it's okay. And I think, you know, a lot of people see that failure before they even try. And it's like, well, you didn't try, so you don't know how far you can take it. I'm a big bowler. I like to bowl. So I like applying life to bowling. You take it one frame at a time. You can do everything perfect, everything. You can, you know, have your stance You can roll the ball And you can still roll the nine. It doesn't matter. You just got to take it one frame at a time. And that's how I approach life and approach KubeCon, to do one step at a time. You know, I want to be the best Kubernetes person out there, but it's like, okay, let me take a step back and let me understand the basics first before we jump into the advanced stuff. So, you know, going back to your question, Bart, I met so many people just from introducing myself. Like I met you, I ran into you, like, hey, Bart, what do you do? You know, I saw the camera and, you know, we chopped it up. I met a lot of your contemporaries. Whitney. when we had the I forgot the name of the event, but oh, Network Note. That's what the name was. When we had the Network Note, Whitney was so welcoming. I told her I didn't know anything, and she's like, that's fine. A lot of people don't know, but it's good that you're able to share that vulnerability. I'm to the point that I know I'm not going to know everything, but I know the questions to ask. That's definitely something that I learned in the military. It's definitely something that I hold dear to me. And it's something that I really want to make sure like, hey, letting the next person know, you can jump into this if you want, but just know like, hey, you got to be willing to do the work. I hope I answered your question. And Prince is my favorite artist, by the way. I know y'all talking about music. Prince is my favorite artist. Maybe you should pick a Prince song. I think a Prince song would be great to prep this thing. But I'm definitely big on Prince. I like hip hop too, but, Prince is my favorite artist.

Bart Farrell: Prince is great. Prince is great. I was lucky enough to see Prince live in, I think, 2007, 2006. And one of the best concerts I've ever seen in my life. I went to his last concert,

Julius Payne II: so it was really good. so Kelsey, I watched a ton of your videos. I probably watched maybe your first video and didn't even know it was your first video. But I noticed one thing that you always say at the end of your speeches. You say, train your model. Could you elaborate on that and some of the elaborate on it and could you maybe talk about the trends you see when you talk about training your model i noticed that you said it probably about seven times i counted it in each of the speeches like why are you saying that so maybe that's new i probably started that last year okay and

Kelsey Hightower: the reason why you know all this talk about ai as great as it is i remember it and when i used to live in atlanta and i'm from atlanta okay where i'm from and grew up you know after high school maybe 10th grade on and i remember around the time when i started my company I was 18, had a computer shop, and I remember a producer came in. He was like, yo, you know anything about like Pro Tools? I'm like, nah, but I'd come figure it out. And this is around the time people were switching from like the analog gear to digital, The Digi 001, you know, the MPC was still there, but it was like, we want everything to go through. Cool Edit Pro, all of those tools. And I remember a lot of times there was this debate around digital versus analog. Which one sounded better?

Julius Payne II: It still is.

Kelsey Hightower: It's this debate. And then over quantization. Like when you hear live music, it do something to your soul when you hear it.

Julius Payne II: Great.

Kelsey Hightower: And your brain is like, that's normal. And then when you hear quantized music, you're like, hey, there's nothing in the world is this perfect. Nobody can play this perfect. So once you know that, you can't unhear it. And so for a lot of people, analog is like the only thing that can really capture in their minds that authenticity of the real world. And a lot of the musicians we all have been a product of learn music typically that way. You mentioned Prince, a lot of the hip hop artists, DJ Premier, they all grew up on musicians that were playing music the way they were playing. That's why I think sampling was so important. The reason why I'm giving you that is that this AI, artificial intelligence. For technology, I think a lot of people have been cool with the concept of automation, meaning you can buy a tool. that can automate things, Like you are mixing your album, you can go put that plugin on and it will automate the levels for you. And that's like the same thing as you moving the mixer board yourself. And so automation has always been cool. But when we say, don't worry about it, just click this AI button that says, make it sound good. Now you would say, well, that's subjective. Sound good to you is different than sounding good to me. And we always talk about the producer having the trained ear. They have their own style. Dr. Dre sounds like Dr. Dre and DJ Premier sounds like DJ Premier. So you kind of hear their sound. So when I say train your own model, it's like training your own ear. What do you like? So when it comes to technology, a lot of people will say, hey, Kelsey, man, I got this AI. It writes the code for me. I've got this AI. It draws the pictures for me. I got this AI. It made the song for me. It wrote the lyrics for me. It made the track for me. And I don't know about you, but when it comes to human endeavors, like when we watch the Olympics, what makes the Olympics impressive is not people running in a straight line. It's the fact that people can run that fast given the human limitations that they have to overcome. That's why we celebrate when people break the world records. So when I say train your own model, when I was growing up, Apple had these posters they used to put in the school. They have MLK on them. Gandhi was on them. Jimi Hendrix was on there. Jim Henson from the you know, Muppets from Sesame Street. And the poster said, think different. So when you buy our products, we want you to use them to think different and then bring your thoughts to life using the computer to help you automate that. When we see AI, what comes to mind for me is saying, don't think at all. Just type this prompt, whatever comes out, that's good. Give me an album that sounds like Drake. You listen to it like, it is dope. Let me go on and put it on Spotify. Should you get a Grammy for that? What did you do here? And people was like, well, you know, it gives people the chance to create that don't have the skill set. The truth is for me, I don't want to hear that. I just don't because to me, the music and the artists behind the music are just important. So when I tell a developer, train your own model, I think there is value in saying, let me learn how to cook these eggs. And then if I don't want to cook the eggs, it's nothing wrong with going to a restaurant. where someone else can make it for you. But if you don't even know how to do something, I think you've robbed yourself. And I have to remind other people, when we talk about AI The concept of model training, like ChatGPT is a model, Gemini is a model. Where does this training data come from? These things aren't magical beings from the sky that drop upon us. They're trained. by who? Trained by you. So when you, when Eric is getting creative and he comes up with lyrics and he tries a new song, that becomes data because of his lived experience, When he creates that music for us. If you take all the creativity in the world and you feed it to the machine, We're all collectively training the machine, but we are the genesis of that knowledge. So we haven't explored all of human knowledge. So I don't think we should stop just because you got ChatGPT. And look, any tool can be good or bad. The thing that they're seeing that's alarming already from some of the research is when we got smartphones, I forgot every phone number. In middle school, I can remember 50 phone numbers. I meet a girl at the mall. I remember that phone number for two weeks. I'm like, I ain't gonna call her for two weeks. And you remember the number,

Eric Abercrombie: But nowadays,

Kelsey Hightower: I can't remember nobody's number except for mine. So what happens if you use ChatGPT every day for the next 15 years? What happens to your critical thinking process if you never have to think about anything? So that's what I mean by train your own model. Put in the work. Dig deeper. Talk to other humans. Go see other people work. Try it yourself. And that part where it's hard, that's the training part. That's the fun part that I don't think everybody should skip.

Julius Payne II: I got you. I really appreciate that. Really appreciate the feedback. follow up question to that is, have you trained your model and what's something that you're, I guess, maybe trying to implement differently in your model now?

Kelsey Hightower: now, my model is crazy.

Julius Payne II: Okay.

Kelsey Hightower: you know, my tech model is pretty good. So what I've been doing in my retirement is I just been doing all this stuff around the house. I took my fireplace out. redid the whole thing so I could lower the TV, put shiplap up. I ran electrical cables from the breaker from the garage all the way to the upstairs of the bathrooms so I can have bidets, pulled the permits, learned everything about the code, bought the code books. You can't see it behind me, but I got my table saw. I just learned how to use it yesterday. I'm using the table saw because I redid all the floors on the second story. I'm doing it myself, measured everything out, cut the boards myself. So I'm in that part of just learning how to use a table saw while I still got all my fingers thank you thank you thank you for verifying but that to me has been so i mean fulfilling the last year just being able to build stuff you know i used to build stuff on the computer with my software but when you build stuff for yourself and you can walk in and feel it and touch it man i think the only thing that comes close to that is probably music i'm pretty sure you can agree on that eric oh it's something definitely

Eric Abercrombie: fulfilling and satisfying about being able to create something, you know, from the inside of your mind and make it come into fruition, man, whether it's something physical, whether it's something digital, whatever it may be, but just knowing that you created it is something so fulfilling about that for sure.

Bart Farrell: So as we've spoken a fair amount about learning things and, also Kelsey's comment about, you know, training the model, I want to ask all of you about things that you've unlearned, you know, what are things that maybe, some ideas or preconceived notions of how things are going to be whether as you know around careers whether it's around technology about things that over the years of something you've had to unlearn either about the world about yourself it could be anything julius can we start with you me first i was thinking but i would say one thing i had to unlearn is the

Julius Payne II: quick fast results like it's just not gonna happen no matter where especially if you're trying to be great i'm trying to be great so I had to unlearn like, hey, it's not going to happen. Like you can you can plan it out as much as you can. But if you don't put work in, like you talk about Kelsey, like that hard work is just not going to happen. So I just think just unlearning the thought of, OK, I could just do this course and I'm going to know it. No, that's not going to work. You have to do more than just know the course, pass the test. You know, what about when you do this and it doesn't work? What are those alternatives? Just being able to navigate and explain and articulate because everybody can't see what's in your mind. So that's something I had to unlearn. Just fast, quick results. Taking the time, building brick by brick.

Bart Farrell: I like that a lot. And we see this in our podcast at KubeFM, which is very much about learning is that no one ever comes on to say that,

Kelsey Hightower: oh, you can learn all these things in two weeks.

Bart Farrell: If someone's promising that, they're probably selling you something that That's not gonna, it's not gonna pay off the way that you'd like it to. Now that I'm 40 years old, there are things that you just kind of learn over time in general that, these things definitely take time. You got to put the work in. I remember one of the first times seeing a YouTube video of Eric playing a song called Getting It In. And not only playing guitar in the way that he explained previously in a percussive way, but multi-syllabic raps going very, fast. And I think it's like over a five minute song. And so watching this, and I think you were probably about 20 years old when that was recorded, but thinking like, OK, you can be really good at this. But that still takes so much time to write those lyrics, to get them on point, to get them on beat, to rehearse them, to be able to play guitar at the same time. Like I said, people oftentimes just see the finished product and don't appreciate the work that goes into it. So I definitely agree with Julius's point about, you know, that's a good thing to unlearn, to give yourself the amount of patience and the process that you need to achieve that greatness. Eric, what about you? What's something that you had to unlearn?

Eric Abercrombie: For myself? Like what came to mind immediately was I had to unlearn my distorted belief system and I had to unlearn the way that I regulated my emotions. So definitely had to learn emotional literacy. That was something that I felt was vital. That was a huge turning point in my life for sure. Unfortunately, made a lot of terrible decisions in my youth, realizing now the importance of emotional literacy. The way that I regulated my emotions, the way that my mind worked, the way that I was impacted by my environment, my influences, my understanding of who I was. Like I had to unlearn all of those things and then relearn it. Like I'm a firm believer. One thing that we must do is deconstruct our belief systems and then reconstruct them to really find out who we are as individuals. Because a lot of times I feel like society shapes who we are from our parents to outside influences of our peers to music, TV, all of these different things begin to shape who we are. And if you don't take heed, you can become somebody can tell you who you are versus you stepping into your core identity and you telling the world who you are. So that was one thing that I definitely had to unlearn was again, the way that I viewed the world, my overall distorted belief system at that time and the way that I regulated my emotions.

Bart Farrell: Very good. Thank you. Kelsey, what about you? What's something you've had to unlearn?

Kelsey Hightower: Man, I think when I was 22, you know, I had the business. I'm managing comedians. We on the road. We performed in Madison Square Garden. I have a contract with Latham Entertainment. They did the Kings of Comedy. And I'm just looking around me and you just look at society's definition of success. There's never enough. If you win five championships in a row, you won short of Michael Jordan. If you win championship last year and you don't win it next year, they need to disband the whole team and fire the coach. And you look around, it's like, it's not sustainable. And so when I started looking around society, it's just like the number of things we've made up, I mean, literally made up by the concept of money, the concept of various beliefs, the concepts of what success is and what looks good, what doesn't look good. It creates so much stress that I remember when I was 22, I voluntarily repossessed my car. And buddy's like, what are you doing? I bought a Suburban. You know, that means, like a 2001 Chevy Suburban. I'm five foot nine with no kids. Why do I have a Chevy Suburban? And it was only to flex. It was literally just to pull up so people can just see how big the car was. And I remember voluntarily repossessing. I was like, man, I'm done with the debt. I'm done chasing all of this. And I remember I turned in the keys at the dealership. They say, hey, this is going to break your credit. I was like, I don't care about none of that because I don't plan on needing no credit no time soon. Here's the car, paid it off. And I rented cars when I needed one. Or, you know, if I was doing, you know, my service call business, I would rent the car that week, drive it, made my money back on service calls. But I was like, I will never be in debt again. And that just changed my whole viewpoint on material things. like I don't mind fancy things like my laptop costs $3,000 that I'm talking on now. So it's not about how much things cost. It's about what the value is to me and being explicit about value. I don't care about a thing I don't like. So when I used to purchase things, do I like it or does society like it? Or I would just ask myself that, hey, man, that Mercedes look nice. Do I really like Mercedes or do I like it because you like it? And that one extra step really helped me just see through it all. And now what I realized is my reputation was the most valuable thing. Who I am is the most valuable. So I could walk in a room with a $15 t-shirt on and get the same respect as some of the largest CEOs in the world, especially when it comes to my tech circles that I'm moving. And I was like, oh, that's value. So I just had to unlearn the rulers that society put out for us because for a lot of people, it's just not important. It's just not as important to be stressing over because you only got so many years on earth to be trying to give it all the way to buy stuff that nobody care about.

Bart Farrell: Love that. A couple of things there is that I'm a big believer in that if the clothes that I'm wearing are more important than what I can deliver in terms of, you know, content of my character, so to speak, then this person simply isn't worth worrying about. Another thing that I really like that I often use related to that is a quote from the hip hop artist Immortal Technique, where he said, if you don't respect yourself, don't expect respect from anyone else. And I think there is, I've learned, I heard that for the first time about 20 years ago. And it's really, stuck with me since then and thinking about why am I doing the things that I'm doing? Am I doing it because we live in the social media world and we all like to see that we're getting lots of traction and metrics and things like that. But if I think about the people whose opinions I really care about and what I value and also what makes me feel good, the answer to those questions will probably be a little bit different. To keep building on this, I want to be thinking about leveling up, So Julius, you're in your Kubernetes journey. You're looking at things about what you want to get to the greatness that you're seeking. What are the hardest questions for you now about getting better at Kubernetes?

Julius Payne II: Overall, I would say from a high level perspective, I am curious to see where Kubernetes is going to go. And the reason why I say is because, you know, I'm putting all this time into it. You know, it's at one, you know, they just updated it not too long ago. So I think about the future like, okay, what is it going to look like version 2.0? You know, are we going to be utilizing the same thing we're utilizing now? And, you know, there are some concepts that I've been skimming over, but haven't really dived into, essentially. So that's mainly the biggest question. Like, what is it going to look like in the future? You know, I learned from KubeCon that it is a big technology. And, you know, literally no two vendors are the same, but the business requirement could be different, which is why, you know, you have two vendors. So that's the biggest thing. What is it going to look like in the future? You know, especially like 2.0 version of Kubernetes.

Kelsey Hightower: The universal answer I get to that question is it's easy to predict the future when you're working on it. It's going to look like whatever the people that are working on it want it to look like. So if you want it to look like something in particular, that's where you jump in, whether you work on the core or you build little utilities around it. That's literally the future. Those are the only people who can answer that question. Everybody else is just guessing, waiting for them to kind of deliver. So the future of Kubernetes is whatever the people working on it want it to be. I got you.

Julius Payne II: I have a follow up question to that only because I vividly remember when AI wasn't a thing and it became a thing. And it seemed as though the technology sector overall diverted all its attention on AI. But I vividly remember when AI wasn't the focus. So to your point, not everybody is in AI, but the people that are in AI are innovating AI. So my follow-up question to that is, the people that are in AI today, are they essentially not necessarily being left behind, but are they behind because they're not in AI, even though AI isn't everything that they're using?

Kelsey Hightower: This is the thing I really, hate about the hive mind sometimes. We know keyboards are important. So there are people who make keyboards for a living. We know hardware is important. We know lots of other technology important, biomedical, the thing that keeps you alive. They're on the verge of curing AIDS. They're on the verge of curing cancer. And so we got this AI hype. And so what are people hyped about? If all the money wasn't there, you think people would be still this hype? Probably not. If you think they didn't see it on TV every day and the stock market wasn't jumping, you think they would be hype about it? Probably not. And so a lot of times there's hype, this machine. And I think in music, you see it a lot. You see this artist like, yo, this artist don't write no songs, don't write no music. And you tell me they the greatest artists of all time? You're like, I disagree. I think this is the beef that a lot of Prince fans, you in particular probably, have with comparing Prince to anybody. You're like, Prince play. All of the instruments. I bet Prince play the fan. And so when it comes to Prince, it's like you really can't compare him. Now you can say whether you like Prince or not. That's different. But from a technicality, Prince does so many things. So when we talk about getting left behind, we still need people to pick up the trash. We still need sanitation. We still need all these other technologies. Solar, wind, energy is still a huge need. So I get the hype. And this is where I try to make sure I know how to separate the two. Unfortunately, it does have an impact on you and your life and your job. Because when AI starts to be accepted, let's say your art is like, I don't use AI in my music. And then all the AI usage starts to win all their Grammys. Nobody want to hear your songs no more. You're like, what the hell happened? So it's one of these technologies that just because we can, should we? Should they allow steroids in the Olympics? I don't think I want to watch a bunch of athletes, seeing who got the best access to steroids. I don't want to see that. I'd rather just see people do what they can and overcome the human limitation. So I just try not to get too distracted by all the AI hype. I know it's real though. So I say this tongue in cheek. I'm retired. I found my path to freedom. I have the luxury of ignoring the hype cycle. But I always ask people, just return to fundamentals. What is the technology actually doing under the hood? Why are people excited about it? And more than likely, there's a much smaller handful of people who are excited about the legitimate uses of the technology versus people that are just seeing this as a path to either make more money or follow the trend. And with that in mind,

Bart Farrell: for folks out there that are, you know, in startups in the Kubernetes ecosystem, you know, we were all, you know, three of us were just at KubeCon recently. A lot of times we might have the feeling that companies are answering a question that nobody asked. And when you were speaking about that, you know, Kelsey, about Does this technology address, you know, needs of the people that are facing up out there? Getting that feedback from the community and understanding what's really going to provide value, what people are willing to pay for, understanding people's pain points. Is there any advice that you find yourself giving very often to companies about that?

Kelsey Hightower: I mean, does it work? Like somebody said, oh, this tool will solve all your problems. How about you just buy it and try to use it? Now, just be honest with yourself. Does it work? And a lot of times you buy something like, yo, this do not do like the commercial. I remember when I was a kid and I got my first little Ninja Turtle action figure. You know, you'd be watching the cartoon. You're like, yo, I can't wait to get these toys. I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking that the toys was going to like run around and do stuff. So you got this little action figure. You're like, bro, it don't do nothing. I got to throw the little pizza like it ain't even. And so then you're like, oh, my expectations, like the feeling when I found out wrestling wasn't real. Wait a minute.

Bart Farrell: That's another podcast episode.

Kelsey Hightower: We're not going. I was like, wow. I thought it was like it's not real. I'm like, it's not real. What do I do with myself?

Julius Payne II: I was crushed.

Kelsey Hightower: You know, when it comes to that, I think I ask companies is what's the thing you've been trying to do? Here's the weird part about all of this. A lot of the things people are trying to do, they could have easily done 10 years ago. Remember all the magic that you've seen from Google search, all the AI and maps, all this stuff they built. 10 plus years ago. So 10 years ago, if you wanted to be hyper innovative as an insurance company, as a bank or whatever, all the technology you needed was available 10 years ago. The songs that they made 40 years ago, all that George Clinton atomic dog stuff is magnificent. 40 years ago, technology to make a hit like that. So to think that you really need some AI. thing it may be helpful but remember they was making hits for 50 60 70 years with the technology they had so that's the way i kind of remind them it's like yo the tools can help but boy there's no excuse when people was able to do stuff that long ago i

Bart Farrell: love that i think sometimes people fall too much in love with like the bells and whistles of things and just forgetting the basic fact like but does it hit like a parliament song does it you know is it going to get sampled like Clyde Stubblefield from James Brown, you know, 5,000 times or however many times it's been sampled. I think there's a lot to learn from that. One personal thing, too, I have to say, because I play guitar, bass, and drums and have made hip-hop beats for the last seven years, is that when I meet producers that have never played an instrument, I'm always a little bit surprised because I just feel like you're missing out on so much that you could be gathering. I often will draw inspiration on that, too, from producers like Jay Dilla, who played guitar, bass, drums, keyboard. And just adding so much to your game in that regard. So I think there's something to be said for that too on the tech side in terms of what people, where they get their hands dirty, building things, learning from experiences, failures, and all that. Now, we're getting towards the final stretch, and there's some very important hip-hop questions to ask. We're going to do rapid-fire hip-hop questions with Kelsey, and then Julius and Maserati, you can feel free to add your two cents as well.

Kelsey Hightower: Before we get into rapid-fire, I want to explain hip-hop for some of my tech friends that may not be into hip-hop. A lot of them heard about hip-hop through some level of violence, You know, that's like the people that only understand rock and roll from like devil worship. Like it's like this very myopic, narrow view of the world. Hip hop for a lot of us has so many elements to it. For me, sometimes when I just need to get in the mindset, the level of confidence, sometimes that you hear some of these songs, like a good Tupac record where you feel like you can do anything. It's you against the world and you're your only limitation. No excuses. It's all now. And I'm not sure we can use lyrics in this song, but I remember listening to, and I didn't know Twista was on the song. We can cut it later, but I'm just going to read some of the lyrics just so people understand how it feels. This is a song by Joyner Lucas. It has Logic on there and it's called Still Alright. And they each tell their story about how they came up in the game. And I didn't even look at who was on the song, but Twista, he goes last. And for those that don't know who Twista is, you should go figure that out. Part of his song is, so I'm going to read it. I can't rap as fast as Twista, so I'm just trying to read it so you can hear the lyrics. So it says, starts with, didn't want to be a slob, even though I'd rather be spitting bars. Then one day someone saw me at work and said, Twista, why are you in here washing cars? That hurt my heart. That shit tore me apart. So I prayed up to God that if I ever got a chance at music, I won't take it for granted. I'm going to dunk if I get the lob. Ran into AK from Do or Die. He said, come to the studio. I'm going to put you on a song. Start my next gig in the morning. I'm going to come after. This is my chance to get back on. Thankful that I was living at my brother's house, but I wanted my own, so I'm finna go in. I walked in a lab, and the beat was by Traxtor. Title of the song was Poe Pimp. I said, oh, snap. I'm about to jack. Spit it funky like a Mac. I'm gonna come off so hard on this track, I'm gonna change my condition and change the way people rap. Might be broken shit and collect no dope from tips, but I might be spitting more game than a mouthful of poker chips. And I'm glad that the world recognized how dope this is. And the prayer was effective. And if you're stressed and depressed, then let this calm and soak in your brain. The first time I ever played Poe Pimp for somebody, I was on the way to work on the train. And when I hear lyrics like that, you just like you get inspired because you sometimes you forget the origin stories. The first time I hear Twista Rap was on Poe Pimp at a skating rink. I was like, this dude is a Macklin. He's great. He's at all of these things. This dude just talked about working at a car wash because his rap career didn't pan out. So he had to get a job. And someone came in and was like,

Speaker 4: dude, I saw you at the party. Why are you in here washing cars? He's like,

Kelsey Hightower: yo, I got to try it again. And that part where he said, when I get on this song, I'm going to change my condition and change the way people rap. And when I hear a line like that before I get on the keynote stage, I'm like, yo. this got to be the best keynote I've ever given. And then if I have another keynote the next day, that one has to be the best that I've ever given because I'm getting a better version of myself on stage. So that's what hip hop does to me because I know where these people come from. I know what those challenges are like. A lot of times people forget the, you know, growing up in Long Beach, I remember there was a time in my life where I can only think about 10 minutes ahead of time. I didn't have a two year, three year plan. You're thinking 10 minutes ahead of time. I got to get to work. I can't go down that corner because the wrong gangs are on that corner. You got to go around this corner. You got to walk around. You got to catch this bus. You got to get off two stops before Compton because we don't, Long Beach and Compton don't jail all the water. And so, you know, all of these things, but I'm only thinking five minutes ahead of time. And so zooming back out and learning that there can be a strategy that you can overcome. Hip hop just puts me into that zone. And it's that reminder and different songs, different lyrics. get you into that mode. So I just want to make sure people understand when we say hip hop, or at least when I say hip hop, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not just talking about the overuse of violence and expletives. I'm talking about the craftsmen being able to tell a story in rhyme form that in my opinion, I don't think Shakespeare could ever match.

Eric Abercrombie: I want to piggyback on that real quick, Kelsey. I feel like that there is one of the major differences, at least today, Between hip hop and rap. Like I think people hear rap and misconstrue that with hip, like that real hip hop. Like you said, it gotta have, you know, not necessarily just a story, but some substance. You know what I mean? Like hip hop. Well, a lot of people, since this conception was educational, people learned through hip hop. You know what I mean? People was able to express, get it out and impact people in so many different ways that ultimately cultivated growth and held a different ways from culture to art to the way that people talk, dress like the whole culture was impacted by hip hop. And I think we made this transition in today's society, in today's world, where rap is more prevalent than hip hop. And that break my heart, man, for real.

Julius Payne II: I think both of them push the culture. I mean, culture has not moved with the evolving of hip-hop and rap. It hasn't progressed without that. So I really appreciate both of you guys' input elaborating that hip-hop is culture because when you look at everything, just even streetwear. inspires the Balenciagas and the Louis Vuittons. But the streetwear is also inspired by hip-hop and rap.

Kelsey Hightower: You know what's crazy? I remember the first time I was watching a news broadcast, and they're using hip-hop phrases, and they may not even notice that this is something E-40 said 15 years ago. And then when those things enter the American or global lexicon, and they become vocabulary, most people don't know why they're saying it. just sounds so cool to use these different words to create these metaphors in a single word. And then you see them repeated by mainstream and they don't understand that comes from, like you said, the culture where all these lyricists are just playing with the vocabulary, creating new ways to think about things. So, you're The impact that it has, a lot of people may not even understand the impact it has on them. I remember I was doing a keynote and I was on stage. And I was talking about Kubernetes, So Kubernetes is this cluster management system where you can take a lot of machines and make them look like one. So I was building up the cluster. And I remember I started, and some people in the audience may have caught it. So I started the first one. I was like, this node is Pam, this node is Keisha, and the other one is Kima. I said, I got three nodes in total. And some of the hip hop folks in the audience are like, yo, did he just name the Kima, Keisha, and Pam three nodes in total? It's like I was trying to get this double entendre off during the keynote. And it's one of those things where in a lot of my keynotes, I kind of I kind of drop it in there. So if you go back and listen, there are some double entendres in there. are some things where I try to put the wordplay in there. It just makes me feel good on stage. And when I see that one person catch it, I remember looking in the audience as a dude in the back with a cop hat. He was just like that little white dog. that's good.

Bart Farrell: And So with that in mind, like I said, we got some rapid fire questions and I want to see how Kelsey reacts to these. And of course, as well to, you know, Maserati and Julius, you can feel free to join anytime. So let's get this started. Biggie or Tupac?

Kelsey Hightower: Man, Tupac Shakur, bro. I love Biggie, but I felt Tupac.

Eric Abercrombie: So I'm from Oakland. I got to say Pac.

Julius Payne II: Same. I'm a Pac fan.

Eric Abercrombie: It's a requirement. It's genuine too though, but it's genuine.

Bart Farrell: It's genuine. And, you know, it's so hard. And a lot of people come back with, you know, well, why do I have to choose? I understand that. And I'm from the Bay Area originally. And so also, you know, lots of respect to Digital Underground, which helped Tupac get his start out there as well. The thing is, though, in talking about delivery, though, and so like one thing, if I can't let go of one thing of Biggie, though, is I think the videos, he was like 16 years old, rapping on the street corner and doing a freestyle. if you get a chance to watch it just the feeling that delivers and just talking about it now like gives me goosebumps just because this raw like i'm going for it i don't care and i've got something to say and the level of confidence that's displayed there i think what kelsey was saying about before you go out on stage like everyone's got their music that will get you in the zone but if you really want to see like the amount of passion and sacrifice and vulnerability that's going just in that moment of something being recorded on a on a bad camera and it's and just we're just really lucky that was recorded at all that's always gives me a huge rush but also being from the west coast i gotta i gotta go with tupac sorry

Kelsey Hightower: but you know biggie technically the way he put together his rhyme scheme remind me like the big daddy Kane kind of compound metaphors like it's so technical this it was so smooth and it's and it's hard to choose if you think about it from that pure standpoint of technical rap ability and lyrics. But when I listen to Brenda's Got a Baby, Dear Mama, and Till the End of Time, Pac takes you somewhere else and you got to walk with him. And when he's and when he when he when he raps to you, it's like you can hear how he feels comes through the song. And then I feel that way. And it's very rare. Like sometimes a good movie will do this. There's a scene that will make you feel a certain way. And I can count the number of times that Tupac has done that for me where I felt like, wow, I really believe that he feels this way. And it's not just a great song with great lyrics. He probably said, I don't care what beat it is. You finna feel something. So that's why I give the edge to Tupac.

Bart Farrell: Fair, Next one, being from the Bay Area, and now my family living in Vallejo, California, Mac Dre or E-40? Ooh.

Kelsey Hightower: I'm going to let Eric go first on this.

Bart Farrell: Good one.

Eric Abercrombie: Hey, I'm going to be real, It's tough, but for me, it's tough, but it ain't. Mac Dre for me all day. for sure. Mac Dre all day. R.I.P. to Furly Ghost, man. He had a huge influence on me growing up. Unfortunately, his life was cut too short in 04. I was super young, but that impacted me. That impacted everybody around me for sure. And that was like one of my favorite rappers growing up. Like he had a big influence on my sound at that time. A lot of things, So I'm going to definitely have to say Mac Dre. Definitely got to tip my hat and salute to E-40, though, because I grew up off of him, grew up off the clique. He's still, you know, putting on for the Bay to this day, for sure. That's the ambassador of the Bay, as he say, for sure. So it's all love for E-40, but I got to go with Dre on that one, for sure.

Bart Farrell: That's fair. And I also, you know, growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, like a lot of my high school was characterized by listening to a lot of Mac Dre. And also going back to what we said in the beginning in terms of building a brand, building a business, Trill TV. All the things that were done there. And then towards the end of his life is when he first started collaborating with Dr. Dre, who I believe produced Get Stupid. So just unfortunately, as his life was cut short tragically in 2004, things were taking a little bit of a shift, expanding out into other areas. I think also the nice thing there, too, is seeing someone who was reinventing himself constantly, who was trying different things, was super prolific in terms of the amount of music that he was putting out. He was putting in lots and lots of time in the studio. Next question. All Kelsey.

Kelsey Hightower: I got to answer this.

Bart Farrell: Oh, you're going to jump in. Okay, good. You're going to jump in. Good.

Kelsey Hightower: So, Mac Dre, no. E-40, Because the thing about E-40, so first of all, he's probably outside of Too Short. He was probably Too Short and Spice One. But E-40 really represented the Bay so hard that even in Long Beach, we had this E-40 period. Sugar T, the whole cast, he brought, like, this is just the music. But then. to hear him still going. Like every album, I still listen to some of ours. The one he did with him and Too Short Together. He seems to always have a hit. No matter how the sound changed, E-40 get on with the young boys and out-wrapped them. E-40 probably was 65, killing it.

Julius Payne II: That's a good point.

Bart Farrell: And the thing is, regarding that, Mac Dre never branched out into having businesses in the way that E-40 has done with E-40 has done lots of different businesses and also many of which have failed and so i think there's a lot to be respected for that of saying like well i can also have you know other businesses apart from this in terms of multiple revenue streams and he's very insistent on his brand and i really respect that because it's a lot of work like i'm sure he has other people that are working with him but in terms of as Eric mentioned, being an ambassador for the Bay. whether it's sports teams, collaborations he does with the Warriors, with the Niners, stuff like that. That's very, cool. And so he's always making an effort.

Kelsey Hightower: It's not for the E-40 acting career now. Don't try to play him now. He's got some legendary cameos.

Bart Farrell: there was a very famous picture also of E-40 and Tupac together, I think in Vallejo in the early 90s. So that's worth checking out too. Good. Alright, Julius, anything that you'd like to add? I know that we're talking about Bay Area, West Coast.

Julius Payne II: I'm neutral. I like both artists.

Bart Farrell: That's fair. That's fair.

Julius Payne II: I like both artists.

Bart Farrell: Okay, that's cool. That's good. Let's move on to the next question. So, Lauryn Hill or Missy Elliott?

Kelsey Hightower: Missy Elliott. Lauryn Hill is fantastic. But y'all can't sleep on Missy, bro. So, here's the thing. When I found out that Missy was writing whole hit R&B albums, let alone her own individual skills and talent, when I started going back to read her credits, And then you saw when she was also 65 and she did that last performance at like the music awards. And like how she's still moving like this. So, you know, Missy to me.

Bart Farrell: Fair enough.

Julius Payne II: You is.

Bart Farrell: Eric, your thoughts?

Julius Payne II: Missy, I'm with Kelsey on that. Even to that point, a lot of people don't even read credits no more. So I definitely agree with you on the sentiment of finding out I was in the same boat. I was like, whoa, Missy wrote this. Whoa. You know, I definitely go to the credits a lot of times, especially when it's new music. Like who? what?

Kelsey Hightower: Her creativity, that album she had, Redman, Eminem, all this, I think it was her second album. And that's one of them albums where you just play from start to finish because it feels like one huge hip hop score. Don't skip nothing. Even the interludes tie in well together. And I was like, that's just the creativity that you see from a Missy project.

Julius Payne II: Agreed.

Eric Abercrombie: So for me, definitely got to give it up to Missy for sure. That's one of the most creative artists, male or female. to ever bless us with some music, Her and Timbo together is crazy. Her creativity is nuts. Also blew my mind too, finding out the credits she was on too. Even like more modern days, she was on J. Cole's Nobody Perfect. That's her singing. That's what took me on the journey. When I heard that and seen that in the credits, that's what took me on the journey. I found out everything else after that. I'm like, man, that is crazy. But despite all that, I got to go with Miss Lauryn. I got to. She took me. her lyrical ability and her singing ability is unmatched. That's to me, that's like the hardest MC out. Like she is phenomenal to me, like top tier for sure. So Miss Lauryn, I got to give it to Miss Lauryn.

Kelsey Hightower: I did have that, Miseducation on repeat in high school. Like, I don't think it came out there for a while, then the CD. That's when we had the CD changer.

Bart Farrell: How many? Three, discs, six discs.

Kelsey Hightower: I had, you know, I had to splurge on the six discs on it.

Julius Payne II: I like that.

Kelsey Hightower: Let me go to the trunk real quick and swap up. I had one of those little aftermarket joints.

Bart Farrell: Yes. So I think, like I said, I think it's a tough call like some of these other questions. It's a win-win. And, you know, Lauryn Hill with, obviously with the Fugees as a score, legendary delivery, mixing, singing, mixing, you know, incredible lyrics. Then with the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill. But then since then, not super prolific, not super active. I know there's been a bit of Fugees reunion. Some hopes of getting back together. Gotta respect Missy. Elliott's craft and grind, long-term depth. So like I said, it's a tough call. Now, I assume that it's safe to say that Kendrick Lamar is number one nowadays. If he's number one, who's number two? And if he's not number one, who is? Kelsey, you seem to be coming out strong for Kendrick Lamar in Atlanta. So I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Kelsey Hightower: No, I mean, I love Kendrick Lamar, man. I think I remember I was listening to a song with him and Pusha T. And, you know, one of those rap genius breakdowns with the video. His bar starts at a certain timestamp. He uses that number in the rap at that timestamp. He makes another metaphor related to that timestamp by doing some math. And it's at that timestamp where the lyric falls. And then when you add up all the bars, it matches his entire runtime. This is crazy. I don't, that's quadruple contrarian. Like this, is, this dude is dealing with time and space now. It's one thing to kind of mix your metaphors and do all of these things. But then to play with time, what kind of craftsmanship are you doing? And to me, when I hear Kendrick, I know that's what he's putting into the music. Like when we saw the Super Bowl performance. It's what he's putting into the music. And I feel like just when I thought rap had kind of reached a pinnacle, he comes along and we get this every 10 to 20 years. We get someone like this that comes along and just pushes it one more notch. Because, you know, before Kendrick, I was like, man, I'm just sticking to my old school. You know, I now understand why when I was young, people in their 30s and 40s just listened to the quote unquote their old school, because it takes a while for a new generation of talent to show up again that can. outpace theirs what they're used to. And I just think Kendrick did that in so many ways. Also, I don't really do the whole top five because I need different things at different times. I don't eat the same meal every day. You know, I try not to wear the same thing every day. So I kind of like a collection of things. And Kendrick to me just has a special spot because of the craftsmanship that he puts into the music. And to me, number two in that regard is. And he hasn't made music in a long time, but he's always forgotten. Andre 3000 seems to be so emotionally connected. I remember when he was on the remix for Throw Some D's on it. And this is around the time when the young boys with the white t-shirt that come down to your knees. And I remember he says something in the song like, so he's on this remix. Now, this is what everybody feeling is that type of record. So he comes on with the there's a line he says. He said, make your mama proud. Take that t-shirt down like two sizes down. He's like, come on, y'all. got to get it together. So he on their record like y'all got to get it together. and his rhyme scheme and what he brought to it. Also, this is when the South was not part of the East Coast, West Coast. People were just like, it's either New York or California, and that's all there is to music for a long time. And when the South came up, Outkast and the underratedness, and then you listen to Andre 3000, Three Stacks, it's wild the way he makes you feel about music, and he brings that other angle to it that just kind of resonates with my soul in a way. So to me, He stays number two in my rotation to remind me that we should not be forgetting about Andre 3000. So he's going to stay my permanent like number two in these conversations.

Bart Farrell: That's great. That's really refreshing to hear that. I know we talked about a bit in Atlanta because it was quite fitting to speak about it there. But his multi-syllabic delivery is what I know I mentioned this earlier and I'll share the link with you guys afterwards. But one of the first songs that I heard from Maserati. of this one called getting it in which has a lot of these rapid fire multi-syllabic rhymes that are put together and also once again once you start listening to it a couple of times like oh he said this he said this he said that if i encourage everyone to try to write a hip-hop song at some point just so you can understand how hard it is because it's really hard it's like you're using your voice as a percussion instrument inside a you know a limited period of time which is going to that's going to affect what you're able to say and then on top of you have to be choosing words and on top of it. to be bowling rhymes games. And so very, highly challenging, very high degree level difficulty. Julius, who's your number one? If it's Kendrick, it's not. Or number two?

Julius Payne II: Number one now is Westside Gunn or Griselda. I'm really digging them now. Number two.

Kelsey Hightower: When were you born?

Julius Payne II: Take a guess.

Kelsey Hightower: Like 94.

Julius Payne II: 90. I'm born in 90.

Eric Abercrombie: That's what I was thinking.

Julius Payne II: I was born in 90. Trust me, I get it all the time, Kelsey. It was a guy in the Army. He was like, Mommy, you know you playing Army? I was like, Your grandma told me. So, I get it all the time. So, But going back to the question, Westside Gunn is my number one now. Number two is old school. It's actually the true crime family. I've been going back. actually, I make music too. I'm producing too, Mother I.D. I do a little bit on the side. It's actually a hobby for me. I ain't trying to get big. But I consider myself a creator that just happens to be in tech. Anyway, but the True Crime family. Me and my guy brother, we was talking about just Master P's business model when it came to music. A little bit of history when you talk about hip hop, Kelsey. You know, Master P is still the top artists that had the best record deal with Priority Records. 85-15. So, you know, I've been just going back and just listening to that. My dad's a barber. And when I was growing up, he played a lot of Master P and 504 Boys. I didn't understand it at the time. But, you know, I'm a big history buff. So going back, I'm just listening to the True Crime family. And I'm like, OK, I can see why it was hot during that time. So that's my number two.

Kelsey Hightower: I remember in high school when Master P was out, and this is when they're mid-ex, mystical Snoop. And every year, maybe every six months, they had one of them, I want to be a soldier collaborations. And when the beat come on, this is when we used to have the kicker 15 in the back where you can't hear the lyrics. You just hear the bass. So you got your EQ set up. You just rattling. But I remember when that soldier used to come on, you almost got to just like, you got to change the EQ settings just for that song because they hit so hard. I didn't even just start. I just got to hit. We just got to hit.

Bart Farrell: That's something too, Kelsey, because you mentioned previously about, you know, explain to people about why you like hip hop. What I always tell people, because I live in Europe, I'm from the US. If you've never listened to this in a car and particularly with some decent 12s or better yet, if you've got a friend who's got some 15s. who you know it's a 500 car but it's a three thousand dollar sound system

Kelsey Hightower: Like this is what like

Bart Farrell: this is where this needs to be consumed like on you whatever headphones you got like it's not gonna do it justice like it needs to be everything needs to be rattling you need to hear it from three blocks away. and be like, oh, I got to get closer to the car so I can hear better.

Eric Abercrombie: That's real life.

Kelsey Hightower: People don't even understand the concept when you're young, you ain't got no car yet, but they got a deal on the stereo system. So you just get the whole thing in your room. You got the whole thing powered up, amps. speakers tweeters the whole five speaker package in your room but when i get a car it's over

Bart Farrell: oh it's kind of like the starter pack that's it i know so i think like i said i think from an experiential point of view there's a lot to be said for that in terms of how you how you interact with that music how you get to you know really you know what it's designed to make you feel and you don't get that with other kinds of music So like I said, for folks out there that haven't had that opportunity, like definitely keep that in mind. Kelsey, I'm going to ask a biased Well, you know, because you got the Long Beach connection. I want to say I could say. All So if you got to choose Snoop Dogg or Warren G, who's it going to be?

Kelsey Hightower: What are you doing? And, you know, the funny thing, I was I was in Long Beach and I remember when regulators came on the radio, like the radio and my buddy. that lived in Eastside Long Beach near Pauley High School. So when they say 21st and Lewis, they talk about Eastside Long Beach. So that barbershop where Snoop Dogg is dancing on the top of the big record in his first video, that's where I used to get my haircut in that little plaza. And I remember when Regulators came on the radio, my homeboy called me. He's like, yo, that's, you know, everybody cousins at some point, but he's, I guess, a closer cousin. He's like, that's my cousin, And actually it was not Regulars, it was Indo Smoke, And I remember I was like, who's this dude making his voice in the background? I think that was probably Warren G. And then when I heard that G-Funk sound. So you buy that album and then Nate Dogg and what they brought to the sound. And he rapped. To me, he was a really good producer, rapper. But here's the problem with that is I had already heard DJ Quik. And to me, DJ Quik don't get taught. DJ Quik rapping in Billy Safe and Sound, that album, his beat production. And this is when he was beefing with like, he's the Ian. Like this is rapper producers. The reason why I like Warren G so much is because of the rapper producer element that when you can do both, I think you can create something magical because you can, you, have a concept for the album and you can bring it to life. When you hear rappers and I have never been a rapper, I've been an engineer in the studio before. And I've seen this dynamic play out. You may have your rhymes and you searching for beats. You're like, hey, I need a beat. You got any tracks? Let me listen to some beats. Let me listen to some beats. And you find a beat that you like, and then sometimes you either write a new song to go with it or you try to take one that you have and retrofit it. And I think a lot of us can tell when it's retrofitted. I was like, hmm, this sounds a little interesting. Like Juvenile had a thing where he said they redid the beat to back that ass up like five times before he heard. And he was like he liked the final version, but that's not what he rapped over. So he had to go back in and change a few things. So I can imagine the power that a producer has when they can also rap. And I think that's what you got from like the G-Funk era. So I think Warren G, but come on, man. I am a fan of longevity. Snoop Dogg has been rapping my whole life. He has this, he did this one album, and I think there's a song in it called Legend. He said, if he died today, I'm a legend. He said, he said, he said, some little boys I've been rapping since you was like seven. And I'm like, yo, he was he's been rapping since I was seven. So I'm gonna give it to Snoop Dogg because he's transcended so many eras. The Death Row era. He was signed to No Limit. He had a whole album or two with No Limit. Got back with Dre. Just this unique sound. And there's very few artists that when you hear them, you can name them. Snoop Dogg has probably one of the most unique. flows and styles period it's legendary it's all his and his alone i don't think anyone would dare to replicate it so i'm gonna get this one to Snoop Dogg even though i have a appreciation for anyone that can do both

Bart Farrell: i love that and you know we eventually will have to stop this but i think we've got enough material to do an episode too but what i will say is because you mentioned this aspect of a rapper producer and also a snoop dog last question and like i said this is a win-win but if we look at the chronic versus the chronic 2001, thinking about if you got to choose which one. Context is tough. Because when each one of these comes out, you know, we're looking at different things. We're looking at different artists that were featured on there. We're looking at the whole, you know, golden age of sampling. There's a lot of things that go into that. While we also imagine ourselves being in a car listening, you know, to each one of these. The playability, listening to an album, you know, all the way through. That's another big thing to think about. It's one thing to have a nice track, but it's another thing to listen to an album from start to finish. And how many times you're going to listen to that again and again. What we're saying, you got the six CD changer, you know, you got on repeat, things like that. So what's it going to be? We'll start out with you. Eric, what's it going to be the chronic or the chronic 2001

Eric Abercrombie: for me i think i'm gonna have to go with the chronic 2001 and it's because i got a bias that's the one that i was around for that's the one that had the most play in my household out of the two that's the one that i remember that's the one that impacted me so definitely got to address my bias there for sure no not knocking the chronic at all but the chronic 2001 was epic and that's In my opinion, the songs from there are the ones you still hear on the radio today. For sure.

Kelsey Hightower: Next episode.

Eric Abercrombie: You feel what I'm saying? When you think of Drake, I think next episode is the first one that come to mind for people, for sure. That's one of the ones. So me personally, I got to go with The Chronic 2001, for sure.

Kelsey Hightower: That's also when he came in with that Sony production in the beginning. It just comes all in. Ain't nobody else got access to this.

Julius Payne II: It was exclusive. I like the Chronic. I think the Chronic captures the time period better, in my opinion. But honestly, I'm going to be honest. I'm going to just be honest. I ain't listened to Chronic 2001 in so long. I'm going to listen to it today and actually see how, you know, but I like the Chronic. I listen to the Chronic more than Chronic 2001, but that's going to be my homework tonight. I'm going to put that on while I'm learning some Kubernetes.

Eric Abercrombie: That's

Kelsey Hightower: I'm going to tell you, didn't ask it. Perfect. You didn't ask it, but I think the Compton album is slept on.

Julius Payne II: Agreed.

Kelsey Hightower: Because that Compton album, the sonics on it, the consistency, it's probably when Kendrick Lamar's on there, you got the whole The thing I liked about Dre, the way he introduced new artists that I had never heard of before. If you're not in tune, it seemed like Dre was like, look, I had to go find a non-mainstream artist and bring them to you. And the first time I'm hearing it, I think maybe Problem was on that album or something like this. Who are these people? And I'm like, yo. And then I go follow the careers of those people he introduced because he gives them access to the best production, the way he's demanding of them. I think the thing about Chronic 2001 is when the Xzibit comes out. And if you had to maintain a tendency to Xzibit was when you hear him with the best production, bringing heat with some of the best artists. So that's the thing I liked about Chronic 2001. I remember putting it in. And just letting it play all the way through because he was just trying to tell the story about Compton. And then you got Kendrick Lamar's like starting to peak and it's like, oh, he on here? And then that part where he was like that little bit of Eazy-E to try to let you know that they reckon he's reconciled with whatever it was. They're reconciled now. And I was like, yo, this. That album fell deep because remember, he didn't want to release any more music. He was struggling to get another album out. So the fact that he gave us Compton, I thought that was a nice little touch.

Julius Payne II: I agree, Kelsey. Ranged it out.

Bart Farrell: It's a nice touch. And I think also it goes back to something that's come up in this conversation a few times is that vulnerability is underrated. And anyone who's going for greatness, you know, I think that's an absolute must to have in there if it's going to be real authentic, if it's going to be, you know, the best version of what you have to put out there. We're getting towards the end. Thank you, Kelsey, for giving us some extra time to continue the conversation because I think it was a conversation that needed to be had. I think it was a great mixture and I hope that we're able to do a future conversation. I want to know before we wrap it up, though, Julius, what are your next steps and what's on your radar for 2026? Your Kubernetes growth, your work as a QA engineer, what's on your radar and how can people get in touch with you if they want to continue the conversation with you?

Julius Payne II: So next on my career, I'm studying, of course, some certifications. and I'm actually doing some building as well. First certification within my 100 meters is the Red Hat System Administration cert in 2026. I'm trying to pivot away from QA engineering. I love it. I just want to do something different. And if they want to get in touch with me, LinkedIn is good. My email, of course, but LinkedIn is good. I'm on LinkedIn. That's kind of pretty much it. the best way to get in touch with me. But Red Hat, Kubernetes. That's it. Red Hat, Kubernetes.

Bart Farrell: Good. That's a good plan. That's solid. And we'll look forward to seeing that coming up very, soon. I can say that Julius is very easy to get in touch with on LinkedIn. So if it worked for me, it can work for you. Eric, what about you?

Eric Abercrombie: Oh, man, for myself, definitely more music. I plan on dropping my first album. I haven't dropped the album yet. Only EPs and singles. Super, excited about this album. It's going to be titled My Joy. is an acronym. MJ. Oh, wow. J-O-I for Journey of Incarceration. And it's pretty much taking the main songs from my Journey of Incarceration that really impacted the population, like the ones where people was requesting, you know, like, he hit that, you know what I mean? And then name the song. So from Juvenile Hall to CYA to the variety of prisons that I endured, the main songs that really captured that journey is going to be on this album. So you'll be able to see my journey of transformation through these songs, my journey of growth. Like I was talking earlier, how like my intentions and overall content began to evolve. You're going to be able to see that evolution through this through this journey of incarceration album. So definitely looking forward to that. Still audio engineering and sound designing with the podcast Uncuffed produced in Solano State Prison and San Quentin State Prison. We just dropped season four. So season five is going to be coming at you soon. So definitely looking forward to that. I'm definitely still going to be cooking up with the music production. One of my hustles is a mobile studio session where I pull up on people and turn any space into a creative space. So definitely going to be hearing more about that. Selling more beats. Long story short, grinding. I'm going to be grinding, Bart. I'm grinding, man. And just trying to evolve.

Bart Farrell: Looking forward to that. And we'll be. One of the things that your beats that you recently created, which is going to become the theme song for KubeFM, is that it will be dropping when this episode comes out too. So people will hear that every single time we got an episode coming out every week. So your voice will be heard all around the world, not for the first time. That's something good on our end. And looking forward to your album coming out. I'll be in the Bay Area in a couple of weeks and we can maybe schedule some mobile studio time. So that would be good too. Kelsey, what about you? What's on your radar? What are you going to be doing next?

Kelsey Hightower: Man. I've been trying to go fast by going slow, just slowing all the way down. I'm at that stage now where I'm going to be hyper-methodical. So everything that I do, every cut that I make, I want it to just be surgical and methodical. And so after 25 years in tech, I did everything I wanted to do. Open source projects, worked at some of the best companies, had some of the best titles, earned some of the best money. So what do you do after all of that? And there's so much more to give because I'm hearing y'all stories and that y'all still on the grind. That is so inspiring. I think they always say that life is a marathon or tech is a marathon. And it's like, I disagree. It's a relay race. And finding people like y'all to hand the baton to while we still running fast. A lot of times people want to hand the baton way afterwards. And if you've ever done a relay race, you don't want to be handing off the baton when you're slowing down. It needs to be full speed, clean handoff. And so that's what I want to focus on for 2026. This is why I kind of keep my mentorship open. I keep my LinkedIn open and I just talk to people because I'm trying to figure out how to pass that baton as many times as I can, because a lot of people have ideas that I couldn't even imagine when I was doing what I was doing in my 25 years. So I just want to get that baton to someone and just watch them run with it. Because the other thing that's dope about a relay race, when anyone, when that person crosses the finish line, the whole team wins. It's not like an individual race, So everybody that's on that relay team, so the bigger you make that network, the more chances the team has to win. So I found a lot of comfort in learning how to not to just win by myself and just be winning with a team and it just changes everything. So for 2026, I want to do a little bit more of that team winning.

Bart Farrell: Sounds great. Sounds like it's going to be 2026. Look out. You've heard it here first. It's going to be a big year with lots of different things happening. I really appreciate all three of you sharing your time, your honesty, your experience, your authenticity, your vulnerability. We've done over 80 episodes. This is, you know, our eighth season of the podcast. And this episode is definitely going to stand out for a lot of reasons. We've got some Prince to listen to. Got to listen to the Compton album. Julius is going to be listening to the full 2001, Chronic 2001. Also got plenty of other music to dig into. So anyway, I've got my homework ready for me. This was wonderful. Thank you all so much for joining and look forward to speaking to you soon.